Publications

This interview is a must-listen for leaders who want to build robust organizations carefully and are interested in seeing the global perspectives that are present within the sector in order to build big-bet organizations that are community-led and focused. Amanda has a strong track record for the successful development and implementation of new business and project ventures. You’ll see this expertise, her deliberateness, and thoughtfulness come through in our conversation as well. Her responses will make you rethink value and appreciate the importance of reflection in your work.

As Amanda shares in our conversation, let’s reimagine what’s possible.

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Listen to the podcast here:

Resources:

• ASPIRE Foundation (Barbados)  
• Lockdown Virtual Salon 2020 
• The Post-Development Reader   

About Amanda Haynes

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Read the podcast transcription below:

-Upbeat Intro Music-

Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast and I’m your host, Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity, and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in and with nonprofits and philanthropies, and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes. On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your organization work.

Nicole Campbell: Hi, everyone. We’re entering the second week of Women’s History Month. And this week, we’re sharing a conversation with Amanda Haynes. Amanda is a social sector, leader writer and creative. Her expertise includes corporate social impact, venture philanthropy, change management, cultural policy design thinking, and emerging Caribbean sectors. At the time of this interview, Amanda was still the CEO of Aspire Foundation, Barbados, Inc. An initiative focused on accelerating local solutions to socioeconomic issues, through support, to innovative non-profits corporate citizen engagement and an enabling environment for the nonprofit sector.

Nicole Campbell: As of January 2021, Amanda is no longer the CEO of Aspire, but that’s why you’ll hear us reference Aspire and talk about its work during our conversation. Amanda has a strong track record for the successful development and implementation of new business and project ventures. She’s helped to stand up a capacity building program in the nonprofit sector in Barbados, where I’m from. Pay attention to how we talk about the nonprofit sector in Barbados, which sounds quite similar to the U.S. non-profit sector, and possibly the nonprofit sector where you’re sitting if you’re not in the United States or Barbados.

Nicole Campbell: That’s the global connection of the sector. I’ve had a chance to work alongside Amanda on strategy development, and she is so thoughtful and practical as to how she approaches capacity building. You’ll see this expertise, her deliberateness and thoughtfulness come through in our conversation as well. Her responses will make you rethink value and appreciate the importance of reflection in your work. This interview is a must listen for leaders who want to build robust organizations carefully and are interested in seeing the global perspectives that are present within the sector in order to build big, bad organizations that are community led and focused as Amanda shares in our conversation. Let’s re-imagine what’s possible. And with that, here is Amanda Haynes.

Nicole Campbell: Hi, Amanda. I am so excited to have you join us today for our conversation about leadership within the nonprofit sector and to get us started, can you tell us about Aspire Foundation, Barbados, Inc., your role there and Aspire’s immediate priorities.

Amanda Haynes: For sure. Thanks so much for having me, Nicole. So, as you said, I am Amanda Hanyes and I am the chief executive officer of Aspire Foundation. We just call it Aspire for short. And what Aspire is about is really building up the sustainability of what we call the civic sector. We can also call it the nonprofit sector and nonprofits that change lives. And we do most of this organizational development support, so infrastructure building, certifications, match funding connections with social investors, and increasingly our work is prioritizing advocacy because really it’s that behavioral change that drives long term sustainability.

Nicole Campbell: And so, talk to me about your role within Aspire. What are you doing on a day-to-day basis?

Amanda Haynes: Okay, so day to day, it varies. Of course, with any executive role the is the mundane business operations. So, you know, just making sure bills are paid, making sure all the systems are running effectively, et cetera. And then increasingly, and more excitingly, is engaging partners in the private sector and the public sector to really raise that awareness about sustainable development and the important role that nonprofits, particularly in social leaders, have in that space especially within the event of COVID. So, my work varies day-to-day, just the strategic direction of the company to general management of the company, fundraising, of course. But a lot of partnership building. And yeah, that’s mostly what I enjoy the most.

Nicole Campbell: So, you have said a lot of good things about the work that Aspire is doing, and I want to dig deeper into that and how you’re showing up in different parts of that work. But I do want to take a moment to talk about the fact that Aspire is in Barbados, and a lot of the leaders that we’ve been talking with and having conversations with are based in the United States. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about some of the differences you might be seeing within the sector within Barbados versus the United States, because I know that you focus your work in the Caribbean specifically, but also pay close attention to what’s happening in the United States and around the world. I’d love to get your thoughts on the philanthropic sector in Barbados and then how that’s comparing to the United States and other countries generally.

Amanda Haynes: Yeah. And in terms of the, that’s a big question, number one, but I’m just thinking the the difference and immediate easy difference between Barbados and U.S. would be of course the size, but maybe a level of professional understanding of the sector are really seeing this whole philanthropic and space as a sector in and of itself.

Amanda Haynes: And I think that, you know, because that recognition is now emerging, we are really in a different phase of development. Again, it’s almost emerging here, whereas I feel like it’s becoming more well, there’s a push to make philanthropy more equitable in the U S and in the UK. And maybe in spaces where this is already a recognized sector, in and of itself, beyond those just within the sector. Whereas, here, it’s really, not starting from scratch, but moving from an informal understanding of the sector to something that’s more formal. And what makes it exciting is because we’re in a phase of change globally, it means that maybe we can really get it right, and maybe create an infrastructure that is even more sustainable from the beginning, because we’re now putting those infrastructural changes into place. So, in addition to that, I would also say the, the financial context is very different.

Amanda Haynes: So, of course, you know, if we think about statistics, I believe it’s up to maybe a third of social leaders, in what we would call developing countries, don’t really access the level of funding someone from the outside may access to come into the same region and implement social change work and activities. So, when we think about the investment in sustainable development at the community level, the context of what is available there is also vastly different. And part of the law of advocacy is really about saying, “Hey, we’re part of that global philanthropy movement. We’re part of that map and we need to be more visible.” So, I would say in terms of visibility, in terms of size, and perhaps in terms of formal understanding or recognition of the sector. Of course, I’m not erasing the challenges and the morphing challenges, especially in, you know, in Latin America, et cetera, politically, that a lot of civil society spaces are facing. However, there definitely is a different level of public recognition and understanding in other jurisdictions. I rambled a bit there, but I’m here trying to organize thoughts.

Nicole Campbell: No, it’s all really clear because what you’re pointing out are some really critical issues that exist within the civil sector, within the nonprofit sector. And you’re talking about nonprofit organizations, right? Those organizations that are fundraising and trying to get resources to do their work. And so, a question that’s coming up for me in all this is yes, those are really critical issues you talked about such as having the need to raise advocacy and become more visible and receive more resources. How do we professionally recognize the sector more? How is Aspire showing up? Because not only are you a nonprofit in that space, but you’re a capacity builder, so you’re the ones that actually are coming in and helping with encouraging advocacy, raising visibility, providing resources and building that infrastructure.

Nicole Campbell: So, I’d love to hear how Aspire is showing up to provide support and resources to these organizations, and then the unique challenges that you all might be facing, given your role as that sort of intermediary capacity building organization.

Amanda Haynes: Yeah. I mean, how we’re showing up over the last four years has really been directly reaching out to existing nonprofit organizations. And, you know, our main program is the Aspire Incubator Program, which is really a 12-month business development program for nonprofits. So, what that does is connect nonprofits to the resources around business planning governance, which is really core financial management communications as well as fundraising and human resources. And what we do is say, well, we take what you do seriously. And with that approach, we’re here to help in your really key administrative functions. So, the support that we provide through that program is incredibly practical and it really is designed to help organizations make it through their day to day more efficiently.

Amanda Haynes: In addition to that, a lot of that work in governance, specifically, is about making policy kind of more understandable. So, really breaking down regulatory requirements into what exactly organizations are expected to live up to and to do in order to build the type of partnerships that they want to. And finally, another part of the role within that program, is really acting as that bridge between people who want to help and people who, perhaps, do want to develop into that role of social investor, but don’t quite know where to start or who to connect with. So, by working with, rather than trying to go big and work with every organization, we kind of focus more on depth rather than skills. So, we work with seven potential, big bet organizations every year, really help and work help them strengthen their internal infrastructure, make really targeted connections to exist in a local funders and also, really help them get on top of the regulatory requirements.

Amanda Haynes: Because quite a bit is shifting policy wise here. So, a lot of organizations do need that direct support. Beyond our programming, now though, we realize that, yes, it might be great to focus on depth, focus on working with these organizations on an annual basis. But we spoke to that wider story of the sector of really untold stories of social innovation that need to be illustrated. So, what we have really gone into is film, short film and that hasn’t come out yet. And I mean, it’s, it’s very simple. It’s very, very obvious, but the truth is, is that there’s not, again, there’s not a lot of visibility around these stories of social innovation on the Island and often, it isn’t framed within the understanding of innovation.

Amanda Haynes: It might be framed within the understanding of just helping out or just doing good work rather than really saying, well, this is immense value that’s being contributed to the society and you know, these are effects, et cetera. So, our work is moving from just that one-on-one and very direct infrastructure of building within organizations to also expanding that story around the worth and the value of the sector. And that’s so important because that’s what really helps people to understand and reframe any misconceptions about charity that already exists, especially even understandings about philanthropy as well, because they’re preconceived ideas of what philanthropy is and what it can be. And the truth is, you know, every place has a different culture of giving and we have a very strong one. So, we’re really moving more into promoting and building awareness around that.

Nicole Campbell: I think the work that Aspire is doing is not only critical, but it really is innovative. I had the opportunity to meet the leaders that were a part of that incubator. And I was just so blown away when they were telling their stories about their organizational development from where they started, when they first entered the program to where they were when they were graduating. And it was just amazing to see the level of support and resources that you provided to each of those organizations. So, I’ve been talking about business planning and governance support and communications help, all of those ways to build up the infrastructure of those organizations, which I think is just incredible. And when you’re talking about expanding to look at storytelling about the sector itself, again, that’s something that I saw coming through in the stories that were being told by those leaders that were sitting within the incubator, right.

Nicole Campbell: They had a real understanding of the role that they themselves could play within the sector. So, I just think that you’re doing such incredible work. And I’d love to hear, I know you talked about serving in this role of connection, right? Being a connector for these organizations and leaders and you mentioned the, the for-profit sector as well. What does that connection look like? How are you going out and forming those connections? How are you thinking about connecting the civil sector with the for-profit investors?

Amanda Haynes: Yeah. So, right now, if I’m thinking just practically, how it looks is that the entire program, you know, before we talked about the financial contexts that we exist in and how that is really a key barrier to sustainably implementing some of these types of programs. And the truth is the only way that this is able to work is because up to 60% of the program are the business support services. All of this is volunteered by professionals from the private sector or from the for-profit sector.

Amanda Haynes: And before, actually, we were able to do that because one of our founders is very much from that sector and he leveraged a lifetime of relationships to really encourage individual professionals to be a part of the program. Now, what we have is rather than just having individuals signing up to the program as a way to give back, we’re having private companies sign up to the program really is like a corporate volunteer program and it’s skills based. So, they’re able to volunteer their skills in kind to these organizations to help them become more sustainable. Now, of course, the master plan is beyond just a corporate give-back program or corporate volunteering is really about rethinking the creation of value and moving beyond just thinking financially, just trying to see, okay, where does the expertise lay within different sectors and within different segments of our community overall. How do we actually strengthen that ecosystem and how do we align our individual goals with sustainable development?

Amanda Haynes: And in doing that, how do we then advance society overall to operate more collaboratively and, you know, there is the achievement of the UN 30 sustainable development goals. But even if that didn’t exist, the question is, how do we move from those silos to closer knit and more interconnected community, especially when it comes to the use of resources. So, now we’re moving from that very practical, direct support from corporate volunteers being a part of the program, we’re actually seeing that translate a bit to persons forming relationships, and then maybe actually joining nonprofit boards. So, you do see the transfer of that knowledge and that relationship kind of living beyond a program and beyond the formal Aspire space, which is amazing to see and we’re really excited about moving to another phase, which again, is rethinking what other types of value can we help to connect organizations to.

Amanda Haynes: And a lot of that, again, is really around knowledge. Our economy, as you know, would have taken a huge hit after the pandemic and that really impacted or has impacted the ability of the private sector and individual organizations to give when it comes to monetary donations and maybe the level of giving that was there before. On the flip side, it has really just reignited a spirit of giving. And so, we found even more individuals and companies and professionals really flocking to not only the program, but any opportunity to help create value that translates to the community level. So, right now we’re actually, re-imagining where all that would go. And when I say we, I don’t necessarily just mean Aspire, but also our other peers within the space. Because we, you know, we are aware of what each other are doing and all of those things, but we need to work more intimately to build that bigger picture of a collaborative ecosystem.

Amanda Haynes: So, for part of your question, I should say we have to plan, but we’re also kind of reimagining what’s possible on the context of COVID-19 and how that accelerated the inequalities that exist, but also the opportunities for collaboration and change.

Nicole Campbell: Yeah. I think the concept that you were talking about, like rethinking value is, is really complex. And I like how clearly you articulated, this is how we are doing that. We are focusing on, you know, and asking ourselves the question of where does the expertise lie? How do we strengthen this ecosystem to make sure that we’re all working collaboratively so that we can ultimately help vulnerable and marginalized communities? So, it really resonates with me. And you mentioned a term earlier, big bet organization, which is something that I talk about a lot, like how do you place these big bets on smaller organizations, on grassroots organizations, that are within the community, but definitely huge players within this ecosystem.

Nicole Campbell: And I love Aspire’s focus on it. And so with that in mind, were you going to say something, Amanda?

Amanda Haynes: Yeah. Yeah. It was because you did ask originally, you know, you asked also about challenges, and I kind of jumped over that. When you said that it kind of jogged my memory. I did want to say that one of the biggest challenges right now, honestly, is because the needs are so visceral and real when it comes to just being able to, whether it’s losing your job or being able to access food and what we were talking about, those very visceral effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, because the program is designing, or even our vision that we’re talking about is very much about the long game, is very much about making an investment to see something that lives on for generations, that is difficult to not only hold fast to at this time, but is a difficult one to push at a time when needs are so immediate. Yet, at the same time, we have to think beyond this moment.

Amanda Haynes: So, that has been a challenge trying to strike that balance and not wanting to lose sight of what is really needed right now. But also, what we need to do now to kind of future proof our communities, really. In connection to that, that question of social investment and being able to make a big bet, it has been harder to really try and find those types of funders or more flexible philanthropists or social investors, those people who are willing to make those bets and partner with an organization like Aspire to bridge that gap and connect people who want to make that investment in the organizations and the leaders that need it. So yeah, that’s definitely been a huge challenge. And one intensified by the pandemic, I would say.

Nicole Campbell: Yeah, I’ve seen that come up in so many conversations I’ve been having with leaders in this space, right? This question about how do you respond to the immediate needs, but also keep in mind that your response should be setting this community up for sustainability, right? And longevity. How do you do that and balance those two things? So, with that in mind though, a question that I have for you is how can nonprofits that are trying to fundraise and receive resources to do their work, what should they, what should they be thinking about at this point? What should they be focused on and doing during this time, particularly with that balance in mind?

Amanda Haynes: I would say one of the number one thing based on all of the non-profits that we’ve been working with over this year and ourselves is actually making time to reflect on what is a priority. What is the priority now and what do your beneficiaries, or your partners need right now? And what will they need three years from now? And I know that may not be popular because a lot of people are advising to focus on this moment and on the immediate need. But, I’m saying of course, that we’re living in a highly unpredictable context, more or less. I think reflection is probably the most important because I feel like a lot of us really did going to overdrive and have been tending to very much to the immediate needs of those we exist to serve just on the ball, almost like a knee-jerk reaction.

Amanda Haynes: But I think taking a step back and reflecting and kind of having a feel of, okay, there have been changes, where have those changes happened, what is different know that I would never have imagined before. And who else can I talk to about this as experiencing the same thing? Let me just take a step back and kind of relook at my context. And even so, take a step back and re-look at the resources that I was using to do what I have to do. The way I was doing what I had to do. How has our reality changed and maybe, how do we know how to change to respond to it? So, I think at the core of all the other advice that is out there, or the core steps that we know we have to take, reflection for me is probably the most important of them all.

Nicole Campbell: I like that, you know, to focus on taking that space and time to be introspective reflective, and thinking about how can I show up in this space? What do I need? So, I think it’s a really important point. And it’s something like, again, I agree with you, it’s not being pushed, right? It’s a time to be still, you’re not being told that.

Amanda Haynes: I do think it is incredibly important because I feel like even something as simple as this zoom, this podcast, there’s some practices I think that were not as normalized before the pandemic that are now. And what that means on the level of, are the actions or the activities that we choose to take up, to execute whatever our individual missions are and various things, that does have some implications. And I think it does present new opportunities about what was possible as well. And it, it really is a time, I think, a rare opportunity to reimagine what we can do and how we do it.

Nicole Campbell: And do you have that same advice for philanthropies and philanthropists?

Amanda Haynes: Of course. Yeah. Even more so. I think it’s a lesson in the importance of flexibility and equity as well. Like when we look and see how many, how many organizations have been bottlenecked, in the midst of an emergency, because of the fundraising policies or practices, it really is an opportunity to kind of think, to look back and see, okay, how am I actually approaching the process and management of fundraising? How am I actually setting my priorities? Are those priorities really what the society needs or is it just what we think is needed? And how do we assess that and how do we test that and how are we accountable for it?

Amanda Haynes: So, I think it is a rare opportunity to actually achieve a level of change that creates the sustainability that we love to talk about so much. And yeah, I do think it’s an invitation to change and to reflect and be real. And that is the truth. And just to be real, I mean, it’s well known that a lot of philanthropic practices have been top down for a very long time. And there needs to be more of the community voice in the decision-making processes of boards, et cetera. So, I don’t want to yap on about that because I think that that’s very clear and is there but now, we just have the opportunity to act and make those changes, and I’m really happy to see those changes starting to be made in a way that they really haven’t been a priority for the last five years.

Nicole Campbell: So, you talked about this need to take some time and create the space to be reflective. And it ultimately to think about sustainability, longevity, and how you’re going to show up for the community’s interests. And when I think about sustainability, and I know you think the same way or a similar way because we’ve had lots of conversations about infrastructure and capacity building. And I want to ask you how is Aspire taking that space? How are you all looking inwardly and thinking about your infrastructure and building out the organization, so that you can show up for the communities and organizations and leaders that you’re serving. And I know that this is a really rare moment because I’m asking a capacity builder how they themselves build capacity, but I’d love to hear how you all are thinking about this and, and what your priorities are, particularly when it comes to building out your infrastructure and taking that space and time to be reflective.

Amanda Haynes: Yeah. So, there are different levels to that. So, first we internally as a team, we had to block out time. I mean, it just ended up being a week, which I don’t think is long enough, but, we’re planning for the next program and we actually had to take a step back for a week and re-look at all of our programming and how it works and compare that to all of the qualitative, as well as quantitative experiences of the 14 organizations who just graduated the program that we’ve been providing support to throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Look back at that again, look at the lessons learned over the last four years, and really from the ground up question most of the features of the program. Did it do what it was set out to do? How was it successful? How was it not?

Amanda Haynes: We had a couple of framing questions. I wish I had them immediately, you know, just in front of me, but we did have framing questions for assessing the impact of the program to date. And also looking at the experience of each of the organizations within the programs, as well as the feedback from our core funders and whatnot. So, we were evaluating and assessing the program over this time. Including the goals and the founding assumptions. So, there were a few things we identified that would have been even unsaid, founding assumptions of the program that we now completely don’t agree with, which is actually why advocacy has been pulled out as a core program moving forward, because so many of the sustainability issues within the sector are tied to misconceptions, whether they are misconceptions within the sector, misconceptions in the public sector, or just public understanding of philanthropy and charity.

Amanda Haynes: And we also realize that there has been a lot of work that we started to do that wasn’t really formally accounted for in the everyday. So, we had this one program that we’ve actually now split into four different streams. It is just doing stuff like that reflects on things that we assumed in the beginning. What did the research see? What did reality see? How do we now address this moving forward? Another priority for us is capacity because the biggest lesson is that it is great to do these things, but we have to build our own capacity as well. So, for us, fundraising is a top priority and we’re aiming to meet our fundraising goal by December next year. And we had to really look again at what our on sustainability model is, what our own sustainability model is for our organization.

Amanda Haynes: Because currently we are 100% donor funded and we operate kind of on a project basis, we see each phase of our business plan as a new project. And internally, we are looking at that and saying, okay, we actually have to set a pathway to being more self-reliant over time. So, looking at what components of our programming should really be project based versus how can we actually implement initiatives that are revenue earning? So, really looking at that whole model. So yeah, it is both program redevelopment in light of the lessons learned and change context on what our nonprofits and the civic sector actually needs. And also, what role we play best versus what our peers do best and identifying what we were doing that maybe perhaps doesn’t sit best for this.

Amanda Haynes: So, for example, if we were talking about the enabling environment and advocacy, there is another organization here whose expertise is policy development, and they do incredible work in that space. The gap that we feel is there is translating, being able to talk different languages, being able to speak to government, to the private sector, to nonprofits. So, what we can do is advocate for the enabling business environment, specific sector organizations, and the aspects of policy associated with that. It’s been kind of refining what we do, how we fit in the space, where we can partner, and then also being more real and hardcore about our own sustainability and capacity, because we’re really adamant about not, not rolling out something that we can’t sustain. So, next year is our test to build part of that and, and see where we go from there.

Nicole Campbell:

This approach is great, right? Because it has all of the elements of just being an evaluative type of approach, where you’re seeing that we are building capacity, but we’re going to challenge the way we’ve been thinking, we’re going to challenge our assumptions. We’re going to look at our infrastructure. We’re going to think about how we might restructure programming to make sure that we are having the most impact that we can have, and even looking at how you’re generating revenue and diversifying those sources. So, I think it’s the way you all are approaching this is so thoughtful and so deliberate and really are walking the walk, right. You’re not just talking about it, you’re actually doing it internally as well, which is amazing. One thing I’d love to hear from you is what are you most excited about for this coming year?

Amanda Haynes:

Oh gosh. For Aspire, there are so many things. I literally was just talking to my colleagues about this. I’m really excited for what we call the third cohort, but next year is going to be, I would say almost the final phase of our pilot and we’re going to be working with a new group of seven organizations next year. I am really excited to see how that goes because of all the changes and, you know, everything that we’ve been doing and working on with the organizations that have passed through the program and all of the volunteers and everything. I’m really excited to see how the program rolls out with the changes that we’ve been making and tweaking and everything. So yeah, I really want to see what experience the organizations and social leaders participating in the program is going to be like. Because I think its going to be awesome.

Amanda Haynes: In addition to that, I’m really excited for our building role in advocacy because the real long-term change will come from helping or contributing to that mindset shift about charities, about nonprofits, about philanthropy, but about what giving really means and the transformative power of it. So, I know that that is going to be really exciting to see. I feel like technically I was supposed to say, I look forward to fundraising and making sure we are good for another 10 years. I look forward to everyone that says, yes, I am pledging three to ten million, you know, all of those things are there, too, logically. But I really am looking forward to see what happens from all the changes and improvements that we’ve been making and really getting our word out there.

Amanda Haynes: And when I say our, I don’t just mean Aspire, but these stories of social innovation, it’s so simple, but it’s so transformative and so inspiring and kind of reframes. I think it will give all of us a new lens on our everyday and the things that happened that we know nothing about. And that’s really what I am I’m excited for.

Nicole Campbell: I’m excited as well to see how you all use your voice within the sector, how you raise your hand and raise your voice within the sector over the next year or so. I thank you for sharing that. This conversation has been incredible. I really like how you are really, you know, pushing the sector organizations, leaders to rethink value and reimagine what’s possible. I want to ask you a question to help us continue to build knowledge through books and people we should learn from to close us out. What book do you think we should read next? Or what artists do you think we should be paying attention to?

Amanda Haynes: What type of artists? I should have asked you this first.

Nicole Campbell: Any type of artist. Any type. Musician, visual art…

Amanda Haynes: And I would say, I’m going to cheat and not pick one artist, but a lot of them. So, Fresh Milk Barbados and Kingston Creative just had a Caribbean arts grant. And as part of that, on YouTube, they had this salon series that features, I can’t remember how many, it may be 25, but they’re really just some of the most visionary contemporary artists across the Caribbean, all linguistic territories. And there’s just so, so much richness coming from the conversations that they’ve been having, conversations like this, that are about art and creativity and philosophy, but increasingly about social impact as well. So, I think from the perspective of kind of re-imagining, just going into that archive would be phenomenal.

Amanda Haynes: I could always send you the link as well, but that was really great. And in terms of a book, I would say The Post Development Reader. I am horrible because I am not remembering the names of the authors at this moment, but The Post Development Reader is really great. It has a lot of ideas, suggestions, and outlines about reframing our thinking and the words that we use within this space, because they always say, you know, words are very, very important because it frames our understanding and then later our actions. So, on that whole theme of re-imagining social impact, re-imagining value creation, just reimagining giving out what it means to be human. The Post Development Reader is stellar for sure.

Nicole Campbell: Well, thank you so much for sharing both of those. And what I’ll do is put the links to everything that you mentioned in the show notes, so that people can go take a closer look and check it out and learn more.

Nicole Campbell: Amanda, thank you. You have shared tremendous insights incredible knowledge with us that I think leaders can actually use within their own organizations to help them go bravely, which is really important and just reiterating the power of storytelling, right? The ability to tell a story out loud, use your voice and really engage in advocacy within the sector, which for a long time, I think advocacy, a lot of organizations have shied away from, and I think particularly in 2020, it’s reiterating and reinforcing how important it is to make sure that our stories are being told. So, I want to thank you again for taking the time to talk with us and for joining the conversation today.

Amanda Haynes: And thank you as well. I like these conversations to learn, also. So, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

Nicole Campbell: Of course.

-Upbeat Outro Music-

Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To access the show notes, additional resources, and information on how you can work with us, please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week as we share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the nonprofit sector. Keep building bravely.