During this week and next at the Nonprofit Build Up, a two-part series solocast by Build Up Companies’ CEO and Managing Attorney, A. Nicole Campbell is a reflective and thought-provoking perspective on what it means for organizations, philanthropies, and grassroots movements to have “Legal Capacity as Capacity Building.”
Recent events such as the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, the mass shootings across America, and other recent tragedies have shown the importance of institutions needing to have the capacity to build bravely. In this episode, Nic dives into the direct role that legal capacity has to build an organization in a way that lasts. You won’t want to miss it.
Listen to the podcasts here:
Part 1:
Part 2:
Resources:
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Read the podcast transcription below:
Part One
-Upbeat Intro Music-
Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. I’m your host, Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in and with non-profits and philanthropies and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes. On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your organization work.
Stef Wong: Hi, everyone. It’s Stef. Build Up’s Executive Portfolio Liaison. This week on the Nonprofit Build Up is two-part series, solo cast presentation by Build Up’s CEO, A. Nicole Campbell, where she reflects and provides a thought-provoking perspective on what it means for organizations, philanthropies and grassroots movements to have legal capacity as capacity building. Recent events, such as the overturning of Roe v. Wade, the mass shootings across America, and other recent historic tragedies have shown the importance of institutions needing to have the capacity to build bravely.
Stef Wong: In this episode, Nic dives into the direct role that legal capacity has, to build in a way that lasts, you won’t want to miss it. With that, here’s part one of legal capacity as capacity building with A. Nicole Campbell.
Nic Campbell: Hi, everyone, it’s Nic. I’m doing a solo cast. So, it’s just going to be me today. I hope that everyone is doing the best they can, in these very interesting times. Very scary times, in which we find ourselves. We are dealing with mass shootings, mass killings in the United States, in particular, and the world we live in, as we know, it has significantly changed, right? We have just most recently, Roe v. Wade, the overturning of that decision, and the list really goes on and on. So, I hope that everyone is finding ways to do their best to work in these very challenging times. Because it’s more important than ever, how we show up to each other, to ourselves, and to the communities that we’re serving.
Nic Campbell: I think that we all can agree that we have to be strong, we have to be stronger than we’ve ever been, particularly now, us as people, as individuals, as groups, as communities, our institutions need to be stronger. And when we talk about institutions, we’re definitely talking about nonprofits, philanthropies, those within the sector. And when I think about how do we make organizations stronger? How do we build them to withstand all the things that we are facing right now, and that will come in the future? I think about capacity building, right? How are we set up to do our very best work? Do we have the capacity to do our very best work so that when these kinds of crises, keep reoccurring, or come up again, and we know that they will, right? It’s just a matter of time. How are we set up to do our very best work, and to be our very best selves, right? I’m talking about organizations and the people within them. The systems within them as well.
Nic Campbell: Now, here’s the problem. Leaders of these organizations are burnt out. We talk about it with ourselves, we talk about it amongst ourselves, we talk about it in the communities that we’re working in, that the leaders of these organizations that are doing incredible work. They’re supporting vulnerable, marginalized communities. They are burned out. They’re being overworked. They don’t have enough funding to do their work. So, they are taking on multiple jobs at once. They’re wearing all kinds of hats. We joke around about leaders wearing 15 different hats, and they’re switching off these hats. They’re playing CEO and CFO and CEO, all kinds of leadership roles, their own assistance. They’re just providing so much support and leverage to others. But they also have to provide to themselves. So, they are understandably burnt out.
Nic Campbell: Leaders of color are even more burnt out, right? We’ve seen the data. We’ve seen the reports come out that leaders of color are burnt out or even higher rates than leaders that are not of color that are within the sector. So, we can agree that the leaders of these organizations, of these institutions that we need these organizations themselves to be strong. The leaders that are running them, that are leading them, that are taking them to the next level are burnt out themselves. So, they don’t even have the capacity to do their best work often.
Nic Campbell: The systems in which these leaders are operating, that these organizations have within them, they’re sometimes nonexistent. There are often no systems. People are just doing what they’re doing, because again, they’re trying to get by with the little resources that they have. So, they often don’t have that time, the space, the money or the resources to develop systems and frameworks of how they want to act within these organizations. A lot of times, what we’re seeing is that these systems are nonexistent, they’re not around. So, imagine having to create and lift to provide leverage to do all these things, when each and every day is probably different, because you have no system in place. And if you do have a system in place, there’s lots of work that has to be done, in order for it to function at a level that makes sense to help folks, teams within the organization, individuals within organization to do their best work.
Nic Campbell: When we take a look at the governance structures within these organizations, a lot of boards are disengaged, right? Even if the board members are engaged, sometimes they don’t really understand what it means to be an effective board member for the organization at that stage of this development. It’s not that folks don’t know how to help leaders, or that they’re not passionate about the work, it’s that they don’t necessarily know how to provide the best kind of capacity or leverage to those leaders at that particular time. All that organizations development in existence.
Nic Campbell: So, we have all of these things coming to their leaders being burnt out, systems being not existing or not working optimally, boards being disengaged, or not necessarily having the tools that they need to provide the right kind of oversight and accountability that the organization needs. When we step out of the organization, and we look at the networks, that leaders might have, that the organization itself might have built, these networks also tapped out, they’re exhausted. Because all of the organizations within these networks are also feeling the same things that I just described.
Nic Campbell: So, this is the problem, that we understand that we need capacity building, we need to have capacity to do our best work. But then we look around and we realize the places and the people from which we would get that capacity is not there. So, what’s the solution? What do we need to do? We’re in the super challenging times, we know we need the capacity, we can’t necessarily tap the places that we think we can tap. So, what do we do? The solution, you hear a lot is capacity building. There’s lots of different capacity building programs and I love to see it. Every time I hear about a capacity building program, I get excited, because I want to hear how funders, how nonprofits are thinking about capacity, how they’re thinking about building it, how they’re thinking about maintaining it, providing additional leverage. I love to hear all of it.
Nic Campbell: So, when I hear these programs, and they’re talking about capacity building, I think about program support. I see a lot of capacity building programs. How do we strengthen your program strategy? How do we help you with your strategic planning? I think that’s amazing. There’s leadership support now that’s coming out, like how do we support leaders in smaller organizations that may not have the team there to provide additional leverage. So, how do we provide you with that capacity? How do we help you build your team? How do we just provide you some support so that you’re not feeling so burnt out?
Nic Campbell: Again, when I see these programs, I’m like, “This is great. We’re getting at the root of a lot of these issues around capacity.” Here are the builder companies, we focus on infrastructure. So, I love to see those programs. I think they are essential, they are critical in how organizations are being built up. I also want to hear how we’re building capacity in terms of infrastructure. When we talk about infrastructure, we’re talking about governance. We’re talking about grant making processes and systems, and we’re talking about how organizations are structured. Their compliance, needs, what is their compliance capacity to meet those compliance needs, or they set up in their right vehicle to do their best work. All those kinds of questions, those are the kinds of things that come to mind when we start thinking about infrastructure.
Nic Campbell: I like to see capacity building programs focused on how are we building up that structure, that framework of organization in addition to the programmatic strategy, and in addition to the support that we’re giving to leadership. Because if we’re not also focused on the infrastructure and the frameworks, that’s not really building capacity. So, within build up companies, we use different vehicles, when we think about infrastructure, because we understand that there are different parts of infrastructure and different ways to go about it. So, we talk a lot about Build Up Advisory Group, which is our advisory firm that works for brave nonprofits and philanthropies, and really is focused on strengthening capacity within infrastructure. So, within governance grantmaking, structuring of organizations themselves, and really going in and working alongside leaders to say, this is how we’re going to build up this infrastructure within the organization.
Nic Campbell: So, we not only assess it, but then we go in and say, “Now that we’ve assessed it, now, let’s help you build.” So, we’re working hand in hand in doing that. We also have Build Up Inc., which is our non-profit capacity builder that provides fiscal sponsorship. We work with women lead, and bipoc led projects and initiatives and organizations, literally, around the globe are doing such brave work. Working with vulnerable and marginalized communities to make sure that their voices are being heard and they’re not being invisibilized. So, these projects really run the gamut. But essentially, we’re trying to build the capacity of these projects, particularly, grass roots, community led initiatives and projects. How do we give them the capacity to do their best work? So, that’s what Build Up Inc., the nonprofit is focused on.
Nic Campbell: We also have the Campbell Law Firm, which is a law firm that works with brave social impact entrepreneurs and philanthropists, nonprofits and philanthropies in order to be their trusted legal advisor and thought partner, and we take those phrases, those subscriptions very seriously. As a law firm, we really try to show up differently. You might automatically be thinking, or at this point, be thinking, “Wait a minute, we’re talking about infrastructure. I get Build Up Advisory Group, I get Build Up Inc., we’re talking about an advisory firm, we’re talking about a fiscal sponsor, that is all about capacity building. Why are we talking about the law firm? And that’s why I want to focus on today.
Nic Campbell: I want to focus on legal capacity as part of capacity building, right? The way we hold it at the Build Up companies, is that capacity building is a very big phrase, right? It can encompass so many different things. As I mentioned, a lot of times we hear about strategic planning, programmatic support, leadership support, we want to hear about financial support, we want to hear about financial capacity building, building financial systems. And we really wanted to focus on governance, grant making and structuring. The legal piece of this touches on all of that, and it also gets into how do you build your capacity when your organization that has no legal capacity? Could you imagine being an organization, you’re doing all this capacity building, and you have no legal team that is helping you with your risk management, your legal compliance, the legal questions that are coming up, helping you be proactive. How are you able to say we have built capacity?
Nic Campbell: So, the position that we take at Build Up is that legal capacity is a critical component of capacity building. What kind of legal support do you have to make your organization stronger? How are you using your legal resources to build the capacity of your leadership, of your organization itself, of your infrastructure? And if you haven’t thought about these questions, I want you to use this time to really think about it. Because I think it’s an often-overlooked part of capacity building. Think about it. You don’t really hear folks talking about legal support as part of capacity building programs. When you hear capacity building, you hear a lot of consultants, sort of coming in and helping to build out your capacity. Like I said, they’re working with you on strategic planning and working with you on leadership. You might see a coach talked about here and there. It’s very rare, and I have not yet seen it, where lawyers are actually being included as part of that capacity building.
Nic Campbell: But we, at Build Up, have thought about this for years now, and that is how we hold capacity building. We think that when you have really strong legal capacity, we’re talking about quality thought partnership, where you can pick up the phone and talk to your counsel, to the lawyer for your organization and say, “I have a problem that I want to think through with you.” That is thought partnership. How often are folks doing that? Or thinking about that as part of capacity building?
Nic Campbell: When you have strong legal capacity, you have an advisor, and a problem solver, someone who is coming to help you solve problems, they just happen to have legal expertise and experience, right? They’re coming to help guide the conversation based on that expertise and experience. We’re also talking about how you have built up legal systems within your organization’s frameworks. How do people work? When you have the compliance needs within a 501(c)(3) organization, have you set up systems within your organization so that people understand, “Okay, well, when I engage in this kind of transaction, or do this kind of work, I need to think about A, B, and C. And if I don’t, or I have these questions, I can raise them with this person, or I should have these kinds of questions if this thing happens.” That is the beauty of having strong legal systems and frameworks, and that is part of your capacity building, right? That then leads into being really proactive.
Nic Campbell: What does that mean? Do you have templates? Are those templates vetted? They’re not templates that were created 10 years ago, after looking at some other organization’s templates, and you decided, “Oh, I guess I’ll use that as my consulting agreement.” Right? Or I’ll guess I’ll use that as my vendor agreement. Or I’ll take whatever agreements are coming my way, because I just don’t understand the value of having a strong vetted template. Why? This all comes down to risk management. The more you use your own templates, and the stronger they are, the lower your risk and exposure in different transactions. You’re able to better manage risk.
Nic Campbell: So, templates are not just, “I’ll just use a template”, right? There’s thought behind that, and when you have strong legal capacity, this is when it comes to throughout the organization, about the importance of templates and making sure that they’re vetted and that they actually reflect the organization itself. Do you have a legal partner that allows your work, your templates, your agreements to be values aligned? So, it’s not just, “Oh, do you have the legal agreement? Do you have this template?” No. Is it aligned with the organization’s values? The way you contract, the way you negotiate is that values aligned? That’s what it means to have a legal advisor, a thought partner who’s working alongside you and saying, “This is how we’re going to contract in a way that aligns with organization’s values.”
Nic Campbell: Now, we have another podcast about what values-based contracting looks like, and you should definitely take a look at that. We will listen to that. We will put the link to that podcast in the episode notes so you’ll have easy access to it. But realize that contracts are not just documents that you’re just putting out there. All those provisions that folks call boilerplate, they’re saying something about the way you want to engage with the other party to that transaction or to that agreement. So, you want to make sure that you have someone in your corner, who is able to say, “I understand this organization’s values and I know how they want to show up with their partners. This is how you know you’re going to engage with other party. This is the language you’re going to use. These are the terms we’re going to agree to, and these are things we cannot agree to.” If you don’t have somebody in your corner that can do that, you need to think about, “Okay, well, how are we using this contract as a tool to help us as an organization advance our mission?” Because if you can’t answer that, you’re actually decreasing the leverage that you have, and the capacity that you actually can build, with entering into agreements with other parties.
Nic Campbell: So, at the end of the day, realize that legal capacity, having legal capacity, increasing your legal capacity, is actually increasing your organization’s capacity. It is part of capacity building, and that’s what I wanted to talk with you all about today. Let’s start thinking about legal capacity as part of capacity building. It is not something that happens within the sector currently. But I really think it’s so important to start holding legal advisors, your counsel to that standard. You are part of my capacity, and so if you’re not providing that kind of leverage to my organization, I don’t see how we are helping to build the capacity of the organization. So, you need to seek out partners and advisors who can do that.
Nic Campbell: Think about the counsel that you’re working with now. I wanted to share some questions with you about how do we actually build the capacity? How are we actually building the capacity of organizations? You think about your counsel that you’re working with now, the lawyers that you’re working with now. How often do you call them? How often are you speaking with them? When do you call them? Are you only calling them when there’s a transaction? There’s an agreement to be reviewed? Are you calling them when you have an issue that you want to think through? And you’re really seeing them as thought partners? Are they problem solving with you? When you get on the phone, when you get on the email, do you think that problem solving is actually happening? Or are you just kind of reciting the facts and just saying, “Hey, do this contract. Give the review”, and raising the comments that you have? Right? What does that engagement look like? Do they know your organization? Have you shared information about your organization, with your legal team?
Nic Campbell: I mean, this is about weekly team meetings, things that have come up that way, strategy conversations, so not just, “Hey, here’s our website and here’s our vision and mission”, but what are you doing on a weekly basis? What are the big plans that you have? Are you sharing that information? Do they know that information? Do they know who’s on your team? Do they know whether your team members need to be trained in certain areas of the law? Because they’re being exposed to it repeatedly. These are the questions we have to ask ourselves. How familiar is my legal team with my organization? With the people that work within it? With a vision that we have? Our own short-term strategy over the next couple of years, and a longer-term strategy.
Nic Campbell: So, you want to ask those questions, but also think, are you sharing that information? If you’re not, why not? You have someone on your team that you want to help you answer a legal question, a legal issue a legal problem, and you have not shared any of this information with them. We have to think about that. What does that mean? What does is that telling you about how you are engaging with your legal team? Or how you’re seeing legal capacity as part of your organizational capacity building? And do you find that you explain, every time you get on the call, or every time you have to ask for a contract or an agreement review to be reviewed, are you explaining what your organization does? Are you explaining sort of the fundamental ways in which you work over and over and over? Because again, you have to think about how is that helping the way you engage with your legal team. What does that saying about the way you engage?
Nic Campbell: Because all these questions are really key, because they impact your capacity building, right? They impact your organization’s strengths, the way it can show up to serve and support the vulnerable and marginalized communities that you’re working with. Don’t think that legal is off by itself, doing its own thing. This is the kind of messaging that I’ve seen throughout the sector in many ways. Where it’s sort of this idea of like, “Well, we just have this contract, we’re going to get it reviewed”, and you send it off to a lawyer, and then you get the comments back, and we share it and that’s not necessarily how you can build capacity within your organization. This may not actually be the best way. The best way may be something that looks entirely different. But because they then can impact how you negotiate your grant agreements, your grant awards, your funding, the responsibilities that you take on as part of these agreements, the commitments that you make, should you be making them? Do you know why you’re making them? Are they aligned with what you want your organization to be doing or saying?
Nic Campbell: These are the critical questions we have to be asking ourselves, because this can add to or detract from our capacity. If you’re doing things that you really should not be doing as an organization, as a leadership team. You’re stepping into spaces that you really should not be in and you’re over committing yourself. You are reducing the capacity that you have as a leadership team, as an organization, to then show up for those communities that you’re serving. So, when you enter into an agreement, or you’re working with your legal team on an agreement, you have to ask yourself these questions, because it ultimately impacts your capacity.
Stef Wong: That concludes part one of the series. Next week, Nic will go in more depth regarding legal capacity as capacity building. Additionally, if you’re interested in partnering with a law firm that leverages a global network of experienced attorneys with decades of legal training and practical experience, and focuses on social impact organizations to serve as an outsourced general counsel and thought partner, then schedule a discovery call with the Campbell Law Firm today. The Campbell Law Firm works with brave non-profits, philanthropists, ultra-high net worth individuals and movements, offering high-touch counsel to social impact entrepreneurs and organizations around the world. We would love to hear more about your brave mission to change the world.
-Upbeat Outro Music-
Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To access the show notes, additional resources and information on how you can work with us, please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week as we share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the non-profit sector. Keep building bravely.
Part Two
-Upbeat Intro Music-
Nic Campbell: You’re listening to the Nonprofit Build Up Podcast. I’m your host, Nic Campbell. I want to support movements that can interrupt cycles of injustice and inequity and shift power towards vulnerable and marginalized communities. I’ve spent years working in and with non-profits and philanthropies and I know how important infrastructure is to outcomes. On this show, we’ll talk about how to build capacity to transform the way you and your organization work.
Stef Wong: Hi, everyone. It’s Stef. Build Up’s Executive Portfolio Liaison. This week on the Nonprofit Build Up is part two of a two-part series, solo cast presentation by Build Up’s CEO, A. Nicole Campbell, as she reflects and provides a thought-provoking perspective on what it means for organizations, philanthropies and grassroots movements to have legal capacity as capacity building. You can jump back to part one of the conversation to learn more about legal capacity as capacity building. With that, let’s dive into the second part of Nic’s reflections, where she continues to elaborate on the direct role about legal capacity build, in ways that lasts.
Nic Campbell: Now, you might be saying to yourself, “Well, Nic, I don’t have a general counsel team. I don’t have a general counsel within my organization. I don’t have a counsel team. I don’t have any of that.” And I will say to that, as a result, you are missing critical elements of capacity building. You are doing your organization a disservice, if you do not have a team of folks that you can rely on to provide critical legal capacity. And all your other capacity building is being compromised as a result.
Nic Campbell: That’s harsh, right? That sounds like – wait, I thought you’re going to say something completely different. No, that’s what I’m saying to you. If you do not have a general counsel team, a team of lawyers, a team of legal folks that you can rely on, to help provide additional capacity, legal capacity to your organization, and to help you think through these critical questions that come up in your work and help you be proactive in those areas, you are compromising your capacity building. You are leaving these really critical questions, these huge questions in some instances when we’ve gotten involved, right? Where we have worked with organizations that may not have had counsel today. And they’ve been working with someone on a team who is smart and maybe has been exposed to different questions before, and they’ve been playing lawyer.
Nic Campbell: Well, we’ve realized this, wow, you’ve missed out on a lot of opportunities, you’ve agreed to things that you should not have, you’ve overcommitted yourself, you’ve agreed to responsibilities that you should not have. In some instances, we get into, well actually, are we actually being compliant as an organization? You don’t want to be there. Because not as now we’re in cleanup mode. We’re still in a much better position than never having half the conversation, but you want to make sure that you’re being proactive, right? That these conversations are happening at the front end, not after a transaction has already happened.
Nic Campbell: So, don’t leave it up to folks who are not that counsel team to tell you about compliance, potential legal issues, problems. That’s scary. That is detracting from your capacity building efforts. So, if anyone is listening to this, and you are an organization, and you’re saying I don’t have a general counsel, I don’t have a general counsel team. I don’t have lawyers that I can rely on. This can be pro bono attorneys. This can be attorneys that you’re paying on a fee basis. I just mean someone who has the ability to provide legal capacity to your organization. If you do not have that team of folks or that person, you are missing a critical element of your capacity building efforts, and you are compromising your organization’s mission.
Nic Campbell: I have to say that out loud, because it came to me just over the past few weeks just having conversations with folks and looking around the sector and realizing, “Wait a minute, we don’t talk about legal capacity as part of capacity building. We kind of ignore it. We don’t see it as part of this overall conversation, or just general conversation about capacity building, when in fact, it is a very fundamental piece of it.” So, think about what other parts of your organization, would you do this? Or would you say, “You know what, we don’t need this person heading up this particular area. We’ll just use folks who might have heard of this thing before and will get by, because we just don’t have the funding for it. We just don’t think we can afford it.”
Nic Campbell: Again, there are pro bono options out there. There are pro bono networks of attorneys. There are different ways that you can engage counsel, right? But if you’re not doing that at all, think about what other areas of your organization would you ever attempt to do this in? And I don’t think that there are many that likely come to mind. Another thing we hear is, we’re too grassroots, right? We’re too small for this. We don’t actually need a general counsel team, Nic. We are doing our work, there’s five of us, we don’t really need someone to come in and help with that legal capacity at this stage. The reality of this is that you’re likely the ones that are most in need. The smaller you are, doesn’t mean that your problems are smaller, it just means that your problems are likely not be addressed, right?
Nic Campbell: So, you’re still in the same situation, and you likely need it the most, because you probably have team members that are playing these roles that need training, that need conversations with folks that have seen lots of different organizations in these situations and can say, “Oh, I’ve seen this before. Here’s what we need to do. Here’s what we don’t need to do.” At the end of the day, you need a problem solver, with legal experience, to help you build your organization’s capacity. That’s at any level. Grassroots level, your mid-size, you are an enormous nonprofit or philanthropy. You need someone with those problem-solving skills, and that legal experience and expertise to help you build that capacity.
Nic Campbell: Now, I understand cost is real. I’m not ignoring that. I’m not saying, “Oh, go out there and everything is pro bono. I understand the reality in which we all sit.” So, costs is real. Having someone as general counsel or in-house counsel team, there’s a real cost to that, right? You have employees that are sitting there as a legal team. There is a real cost to that. We’re talking legal assistance and systems that have been set up. That’s not all pro bono. So, I’m not being naive at all, and saying, “Oh, just go out there and get pro bono assistance. Don’t worry about it.” No. That cost is real and you have to consider all of this against the kind of work you’re doing, the risk analysis, risk management.
Nic Campbell: But there are ways in which you can still accomplish this. And this is why at The Campbell Law Firm, at TCLF, we aim to show up differently, because our model is really based on working with grassroots organizations, working with brave nonprofits and philanthropy that are not – they just don’t want to be seen as “just another nonprofit”. They want to maintain their movement, sort of flexibility and status, and we want to as well. We also work with multibillion-dollar philanthropies. So, our model is really set up to say, “Look, at the end of the day, the core of it is we want to partner with folks.” So, these social impact entrepreneurs, these philanthropists, these brave nonprofits and philanthropies that are trying to disrupt and change the status quo, that is our model.
Nic Campbell: So, you can be an organization of five. You can be an organization of 50, of 500. We want to make sure that at the core of it all, we’re able to address problems as they come up, issues before they arise, and work alongside teams in grassroots organizations and organizations that are medium sized, large as well. Our approach is that, again, we’re talking about costs. We want to make sure that it’s cost effective, right? So, we don’t bill by the minute. That’s a huge surprise and it’s probably a shocker for a lot of folks listening. We do not bill by the minute. We do not think that that allows us to partner in the way that we want to. We don’t want folks getting on the phone with us and counting the minutes, I don’t want to ask how your day was because now I’m going to get billed for your small talk, right?
Nic Campbell: I’ve been in-house counsel and I understand that feeling, right? It’s real. So, we don’t bill by the minute, we don’t do surprise bills, we do flat fee arrangements. And this allows small organizations and large organizations to budget for these costs. As soon as you start an engagement with us, this is what it will cost for the year. We talked about how many reviews of agreements and how we’re going to engage and we allow you to – we want to hear from you. The thinking is not, look, we’re just going to get into this engagement, use us as little as you can, because we know that the money’s there. No, we want you to reach out to us, to share everything that is coming up. “Hey, this has happened. Do you think that this might be a situation that you should know about? Do you think that this is a question that we should add?” We want all of those questions. And that’s all built into the way we have set up our fee structure, because we want it to be cost effective. Because we realize right that legal capacity is a critical component of capacity building.
Nic Campbell: So, you cannot talk about I’m building this amazing organization. I’m focused on capacity building. I want to provide support to my leadership team, and I want to make sure that my strategy is sound, and you have no legal capacity. You’re not even thinking about how do you build capacity in your legal systems, your frameworks, your legal team. We just don’t understand how that can coexist, right? The same ideas come up when we talk about infrastructure, right? Infrastructure is part of your capacity building. So, if you’re not talking about how you are trying to strengthen your infrastructure, and your framework, organizational framework, you’re not talking about capacity building, right?
Nic Campbell: So, we need to have a larger conversation about what do we mean, when we are talking about capacity building for an organization. Legal needs to be included. And so, we want to make sure that we have a model that allows even the most grassroots organization that we work with, to say, “We can rely on a legal team of folks who can be our thought partners in this space, who can help us problem solve, and have this legal experience to help us do so.”
Nic Campbell: That’s the thinking with our model that we want it to be cost effective. We provide a dedicated general counsel team. It’s not like, “Well, today, I’m talking to this person, and I’m explaining all of this. And then the next day, you might be talking to someone else. You’ve got to do it all over again. The next week, you’re talking to someone else.” No, you have a dedicated team, you have folks who have decades of experience combined. We’re providing, you know, essentially a general counsel, an outsourced, in-house general counsel for the organization, someone else who’s working alongside that attorney to help provide that legal capacity. And then you’ve got the team itself that that person can then rely on when questions come up, right?
Nic Campbell: Imagine having all of those resources at your disposal, you compare that organization that has that kind of legal teams set up, that kind of legal capacity to an organization that isn’t even thinking about legal capacity, but they’re thinking about organizational capacity building. There’s no way that that second organization can then say, “Okay, we’re going to move ahead and do this in a sustainable way with this gaping hole of legal capacity just not be discussed.” This is really important to us, right? The reason I talk about legal capacity so much is yes, I think it is a critical component of capacity building. I also want folks to work with lawyers in a very different way than what has been put out there and what we think of when we consider working with attorneys, or working with, “outside counsel”. Because again, we’re not talking about employees who are sitting within an organization because it’s a different dynamic.
Nic Campbell: I’ve been an in-house counsel, as I’ve mentioned, and it’s a very different dynamic. Folks on our team will tell you that as well, that you are in it in a very different way than “outside counsel” might be. Because you’re there day to day, you are joining team meetings, depending on the organizational setup, and we want to recreate that kind of dynamic because there is a beauty that comes from being in-house counsel, when you don’t have to get the explanations over and over and over again, about how an organization works. What kinds of partnerships you’re trying to create? The kinds of risks that they’re willing to step into or be exposed to, and the kinds of things that they want to avoid. I’m really passionate about making sure that we can continue to work this way. Because I really don’t think that the law as it has been set up, law firms, generally. It wasn’t set up for folks that look like me, or firms that work the way we do to thrive. And those are facts, right?
Nic Campbell: If you look at – I mean, just some of these really outdated ethics rules that are in play in different states, you will see that it is set up in a way that is saying this is the kind of firm that we want. These are the kinds of people that we want. This is how we think the law should work. And that has nothing to do with the way that you are lawyering. It has nothing to do with the way you are providing legal advice and counseling support. So, the way I want to show up is I want to make sure that I give voice to those who have been invisibilized, the organizations that are out there working on behalf of communities that are vulnerable and marginalized, that they have the resources, they have the legal capacity they need to make sure that they are sustainable. Their work can be sustained. The solutions that they’re coming up with, can be leveraged. And we can scale and we can start to have different kinds of conversations, and you cannot do that without access to quality, legal resources and capacity.
Nic Campbell: So, that is the entire vision behind The Campbell Law Firm. So, when we talk about capacity building, don’t talk about capacity building, and not ask about legal capacity. When you look at all these capacity building programs, you see all the consultants and different aspects of the work that are critical, right to really building up these organizations. I want us also to think about, what about the legal capacity? How are we providing additional legal support and resources to these organizations to support their work? Because if we’re not asking that question, we’re doing a real disservice. Because legal capacity is part of the capacity building conversations.
Nic Campbell: This is why at TCLF, we do not do one off transactions. You will not see us just, “Oh, you want us to review that one agreement for you?” Here you go by. Because there is a bigger conversation and bigger context in which this agreement sits, and this transaction sits. I understand that that’s not for everyone. I understand that some organizations might say, “Well, you know what, we just needed the answer to this one thing.” But what we have found is when organizations have that mentality, they’re not thinking about capacity building as it’s going to include legal capacity as well. And it’s very telling, and sometimes it’s just not the right time, I get that. But those conversations, when folks have come to us with one off, what we’ll do is we’ll say, this is not the way we work, here’s how we work and a lot of organizations, they’re just kind of like, “Whoa, I didn’t know that was a possibility.”
Nic Campbell: So, we start down the path of here’s how you can retain us and we can work together, and this is what a partnership looks like. This is how we can provide additional legal capacity. Sometimes, the organization might say, “Oh, well, you know, we’re just looking for this one-off review.” And we still are able to provide additional legal resources or recommendations to other law firms that might work a little bit differently, but still have that same mentality around, here’s how we’re going to try to build your legal capacity in this instance, right?
Nic Campbell: I say all of this to say that legal capacity is not about just reviewing agreements. You have somebody that can – a lawyer that can review your transaction or review an agreement or a contract, it’s about all of those things. It’s about the legal framework, it’s about how they’re reviewing, the questions they’re asking, the conversations that they’re having with you, how often they’re talking with you. How well do they know your organization? How much information are you sharing about your organization with them?
Nic Campbell: A lot of folks who know me know that I was not trying to start a law firm. When I started to Build Up companies, I did not want to start a law firm, because I was so indoctrinated into that very system that I just described, where law firms worked a lot differently. They didn’t work the way that TCLF worked, or the way I envisioned a law firm could work. So, I thought, “Well, if it hasn’t been done before, and I haven’t seen it, and these law firms are successful models, it can’t be done. So, I will start a law firm.” It wasn’t until I was talking with an ideal client. There’s still a client to this day and amazing organization that works around the globe. And they said, “Well, how do we work with you?” And I said, “Well, this is how I want to work.” And I have that model where legal capacity is part of capacity building. So, what do I want that to look like?
Nic Campbell: I want to know what you’re doing. My team should know what you’re doing. We should be able to say, “This is how we’re going to help you build your legal framework, your protocols, your templates. This is how you’re going to be proactive. Here’s how we’re going to help you solve this problem on a consistent basis. Here’s how we’re going to help you be sustainable so that when you show up to the communities that you’re working with, you have the legal capacity and the general capacity and leverage to do so.” That’s when we created the way that we work now, which is TCLF.
Nic Campbell: So, we really are doing it differently and we’re doing it that way. We’re doing it in a way that is inclusive of grassroots organizations, of small organizations, of large organizations that want to show up differently, that want to be disruptive in the truest sense of that word, and it’s the only way I know how to work.
Nic Campbell: When I think about if you are a grassroots organization listening to this and saying, “I don’t know if this is for me. I don’t know if I can afford it.” Just know that we created TCLF with you in mind. We created the way that we work with you in mind, our approach with you in mind. And this also goes for our clients that are multibillion-dollar philanthropies. The core and the commonality is that you are trying to be disruptive to the status quo, that perpetuates injustice and inequity. And so, if you are trying to be disruptive in that way, know that we understand that legal capacity needs to be part of the conversation, and we will work with you to provide that kind of support and leverage.
Nic Campbell: When legal capacity is not part of the capacity building conversation, ask why. Push the conversation, push the question. Think about how legal capacity can help your team, your work, your organizational vision. Hopefully, this episode, this solo cast is helping you think about how legal capacity can play such a key role in how your organization is built out, how its vision can be advanced, how its mission can be supported, and how your goals can be leveraged in scale, and then come talk to us.
Nic Campbell: As I mentioned, if we’re not a fit, we can still point you to additional resources and others that might be. But I just want us to start this conversation. I want to start having this conversation about legal capacity as part of capacity building. It doesn’t have to be with TCLF. I tell people this all the time that I am not in the convincing business. When I started the Build Up companies, I said very, very quickly, I am not in the convincing business. I’m in the building business, the problem-solving business. And I’m into working with brave organizations and leaders that are trying to disrupt the status quo, right? That are trying to show up sustainably and at scale for vulnerable and marginalized communities that have been historically left out of the conversation. That’s the common thread.
Nic Campbell: So, it’s not about just picking TCLF and that’s the only way you get legal capacity. I want you to just have this conversation about legal capacity as part of capacity building. That is all. I want to leave you with this. Ask yourself, how can legal capacity help my organization’s capacity building? How can increasing and strengthening my own organization’s legal capacity, help the communities that I work with and that I serve? How will it help us sustainably show up, consistently show up for these communities? Those are the questions I want to leave you with, so that you can start to think about legal capacity in a different way, or even just start thinking about legal capacity, because it is critical.
Nic Campbell: Thank you all for the amazing work that you do every day, for building your organizations in such a way that can be such a resource, and so helpful to communities that need it. And every day that your building is allowing the stories of communities to be told and having them be the storytellers, as opposed to speaking on their behalf. So, thank you, and any questions that you have about legal capacity, I’d love to continue this conversation. Please feel free to reach out to us by email or just on any of our socials and we’re happy to talk about legal capacity. Talk to you all soon.
Stef Wong: That completes this two-part series on legal capacity as capacity building, with A. Nicole Campbell. As we wrap up, if you’re interested in partnering with a law firm that leverages a global network of experienced attorneys with decades of legal training and practical experience, and focuses on social impact organizations to serve as an outsourced general counsel and thought partner, then schedule a discovery call with The Campbell Law Firm today. The Campbell Law Firm works with brave non-profits, philanthropists, ultra-high net worth individuals and movements, offering high-touch counsel to social impact entrepreneurs and organizations around the world. We would love to hear more about your brave mission to change the world.
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Nic Campbell: Thank you for listening to this episode of Nonprofit Build Up. To access the show notes, additional resources and information on how you can work with us, please visit our website at buildupadvisory.com. We invite you to listen again next week as we share another episode about scaling impact by building infrastructure and capacity in the non-profit sector. Keep building bravely.
Jamie Lieberman, was the owner and founder was the owner of Hashtag Legal had been a practicing lawyer for over 16 years.
